Conscious Reality

[Chris]

Well, you can go to the airport and jump on a plane, if you can afford the airfare. If you can't, then you have to manifest it.

But manifestation seems to be a long draw out process where the object of manifestation (money in this case) will supposedly arrive through natural means (i.e. tax rebate, winning on scratch card etc). To me, the only difference between an object supposedly manifested, and a normal action of the system (i.e. you would have got that tax rebate anyway) is one purely of perspective and belief. Did you really manifest the object, or would you have got it anyway but your outlook and belief makes you believe you did create it.
If a single person could manifest something instantly, that would change things. This is where my scepticism lies.

Yet there is a new cult (what all religions are in the beginning) born every day, with a new messiah or 'founder'.

Agreed there is. But this seems more of an effect of energy expanded in the system through natural means. People want a messiah, so they find a man/woman and call them a messiah. I’ve yet to see a cult leader with the powers people perceive a messiah to actually have. So in this instance again, belief changes the person’s view of reality, but not reality itself.

That's because everyone doesn't believe the same theory. Some religions believe that God created us through evolution. So my point to all this is that we do create our reality, but only by following the rules of this reality. Because if this reality is consensus, then the physical laws regarding it (quantum or Newtonian, or even if the Unified Field Theory is ever discovered) have been built-in into it. So it's not that an individual consciousness is going to warp or change the rules, but is going to become more attuned to it. Then it will be more 'in tune with' the Allness (or the One, or whatever you want to call it. I call it God, but that's a psychological dependency that I have born of my religious tendencies.)

We could change my examples of religions not becoming manifest with examples from the scientific domain. Such as gravity was with us before we even know of its existence. A thousand yours ago you walked on the earth because that is the way things were. Now we know we walk on earth due to gravity. Our ideas about gravity and what it is does not affect gravity itself – simply our perception of it changes (such as with all scientific principles).

We have the tendency to think in terms of 'changing' what Is (Magical Thinking) and calling it 'creating your reality'. But in my view changing your reality is changing your own mind (or perception) to 'tune in to' or to allow into our reality what already Is. That's when the real miracles happen.

I can agree with the above – but it is far removed from what others believe (i.e. reality as we perceive it is a direct result of belief and nothing more). Science can be said to be a process of becoming more intune with natural properties to create things which would be truly miraculous to our ancestors.

[CFTraveler]

Chris wrote:

I can agree with the above – but it is far removed from what others believe (i.e. reality as we perceive it is a direct result of belief and nothing more). Science can be said to be a process of becoming more intune with natural properties to create things which would be truly miraculous to our ancestors.

That's because I personally believe that anything that exists is natural, not supernatural (I don't believe in the supernatural- To me the word supernatural means that which we don't understand, we place above nature.) But I believe manifestation is a natural law, like gravity. As for what other people believe, well... :roll:

[Moonchild]

Interesting thoughts, I have a few of my own.

A lot of how I look at it comes from trying to correlate a much larger piece of the puzzle. What exactly is the 'energy' of awareness? How is psychic impression conveyed? Through what medium does it travel? How does the normal human consciousness percieve superconscious impressions? This applies to many things, from ESP to OBE, premonition to past lives. What is the working mechanism for consciousness of normal sensory and supersensory phenomena?

Many current theories hold that the Aklasha is a universal quantum energy subfield, which causes all points and times of the universe to be in instantaneous and direct communication with every other point in the universe throughout space and time. In this vision, the universe is an informed universe, intelligently dynamic. This is why throughout the history of the universe you see evolution to wider diversity and higher complexity, instead of degrading to chaos, if randomness were really the operative principle.

In this theory, the universal quantum subfield is the underpinning of the universe, and the operative principle of human consciousness itself - one of the main points of 'What the Bleep' I found most fascinating. In deep meditation, this is what we become sensitive to in the 'Inner joyous silence' of 'pure awareness'. We are able to sense the unitive consciousness of the universe itself. This is the foundation of mysticism, metaphysics, and transcendent experience.

That is the metaphysical level of things. On the physical level of things, our animal nature has a much narrower view. Our evolved animal nature is all about survival, and one of the tools that has evolved, thanks to the 'great creative urge' behind the informed universe, is intelligence. The neural circuitry of the human brain has evolved to such a high level, through a hysteresis loop of memory which continually runs and 'reflects' it's current internal and external environment at a very sophisticated level, that it 'thinks'. It survives better because it is able to abstract and plan, making it adapt better to adverse conditions and even to predict the movements of it's prey or enemies - an incredible survival advantage. It is also able to realizes it's own existance, and to wonder about the existance of the rest of the universe.

At some point, it begins to mistake it's internal abstractions for reality. That is what the ego is - Your idea of yourself 'thinking' it really is yourself. This is what is meant by the mantra of the mystics; "Reality is illusion." Of course, reality isn't really an illusion - that would be an oxymoron. Your abstractions about yourself and the world around you are illusion however, at least the mistaking them for 'reality'. Also, the universe extends far beyond what the limited animal senses convey (though I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir on that one), which doesn't make the normally sensed reality 'illusion' , just incomplete.

The thorny part of all this, however, is that your perspective - your inherent view from a single point in the universe as an evolved physical being, and a conscious awareness whose consciousness is built layer upon layer of abstract mental concepts, from 'self' to 'other', and then all other concepts out of 'difference to other' - is all you have, outside the transcendent experience. Even then, superconscious awareness must be funnelled into and percieved through normal consciousness, because if it couldn't you could never consciously remember it! How could you, when, such as in the case of OBE, by definition you are perceiving it (in remembrance) in normal waking consciousness through normal consciousness, not superconsciousness?

Robert Bruce of Astraldynamics fame describes the process as a 'downloading' of superconscious concepts and impressions into the normal conscious mind, but the problem here is that superconscious concepts and impressions are by definition insensible to normal consciousness. How then is it that we are able to abstract and quantify superconscious experience at all?

The mind in it's normal functioning is a type of abstraction or interpretive engine. That is what it does, wether you are talking about electrical impulses from skin, eyes, or ears, or conscious symbols manipulated mentally in the dreaming or awake states, it takes all that raw information and makes it into something you can make sense of. The theory is that psychic impressions are transmitted through the universal consciousness field as pure information, and when conditions are right, picked up by the fundamental awareness of the base human consciousness. Like a TV signal, it is just a raw stream of information that makes no sense by itself, it needs a receiver to make sense of it, to convert it to something understandable. Unlike a TV signal, it is not a stream of electrical impulses, but more closely resembles emotional energy. The interpretive engine of the mind picks this up, examines it, and automatically assigns abstract symbology from the subconscious emotional abstraction 'library' of the human mind.

This is why psychics often report receiving information symbolically, because that is their first sensation of it. From there, it is up to their skill, knowledge and intuition to try to properly decode the symbols. How successful they are depends a lot on how aware they are of their own subconscious symbology, and how well they are able to clear their minds of their own mental 'noise'. Depending on how adept they are, and how clear the transmission, they will be more or less aware of the translation process as an intermediary step.

[oath]

Dear Moonchild,

Perceptions and opinions are lies. That is your illusion as you seem to have stated. Yet you say that our perceptions and opinions are all we have? That is incorrect. The opposite to a lie is truth, and it certainly is possible to gain truth without getting opinions and perceptions involved. Thinking is a choice, wishes and whims are not fact nor are they any more real for following them. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, but we are not free to evade the penalty of the abyss that awaits us.

Speaking from a collective type of consciousness, this seems also to be made of truth. Even if a billion people believe a lie, it will still be a lie, and not be any closer to truth. Real to an extent, yes, but not true in itself.


The article goes to state that consciousness creates reality. Which I dont think it does, I say that choice creates reality, or more correctly, gives it power. I say that all things are eternal in some aspect or perspective and that we are only bringing to light what is already there. This is a very hard concept for me, and im guessing for everyone else as well, but Ill try to explain as best I can. There are two sides. One is life, order, truth, light, male, etc.. the other is death, chaos, lies, dark, female, etc.. Yin and yang basically. Now, I am first going to say that a wise person will know that there is good in both sides. Both order and chaos, both life and death, are at times and in certain situations useful. A wise person, an intelligent person, a wizard/magus will use the powers that be to an advantage of some sort. Surely, lying to save a friend from some ghastly fate can be considered good or right, yes? What I say is not for sheep. What I say is for the wise person, for the magician. Sheep are told to obey laws, obey them so that they may be safe. I will break them and bend them at my will. And that is my choice, in which choice seems to be some sort of combination of the two sides, of yin and yang. Choice is both chaos and order, and choice, free will, is what makes us who we are. But not so in the way you may think. Say a person chooses to not be angry anymore. That person goes around exhibiting all of his qualities except that of anger. Does that mean that the anger is no longer there? No, it only means that the person made a choice to not act on the anger. It is merely lying in wait, still within the being, but not outwardly directed or acted upon. The same seems to be true for most other things that can be tested, either with logical, rational thinking or some other way. In that way the universe and everything in it has existed always and always will exist. At that point all time, past, present, and future merge and become obsolete, at that point there is the absolute.

The above being the closest to the idea of "oneness" I am yet able to grasp

Great post btw, a good mental excercise for meh

[Moonchild]

Thanks for the reply.

Please point to where I say perceptions and opinions are lies, because I don't recall saying that. Mistaking our abstractions for reality is a serious error - that I said. ;) It does not, in my mind, immediately follow that all perceptions and opinions are false.

For example, let's say we look at the moon. We ask ourselves, "What is the moon?", and we point to what we are looking at, the moon, and confidently tell ourselves, "That is the moon. I know what the moon is." Is that a lie? Yes and no. What we have done is create an abstraction in our thoughts of what 'moon' is to us, which we can carry around with us and recall even when 'moon' isn't present. We have a mental image of a pock-marked circle of light that slowly moves across the sky - is that what the moon is? Do we really know what the moon is? Have we somehow squeezed the moon into our skulls where we can grok it in interpenetrating oneness? No, and the big mistake occurs when we mistake our abstractions for what is really 'out there'. Certainly we can make reasonable and informed opinions based on carefully perceiving everything we can about some thing - we can know truth, even to a very high degree - if we are very thorough and careful - however at the same time we can hardly eliminate all difference between our opinions and what is really out there - the fact of our inherent perspective guarentees it, as well as the very nature of mental abstraction. Also, because all our thoughts and conceptions are only 'representative' of an object, that leaves the door open to conceptualize and 'rearrange' abstractions in ways that have little or no correlation with what is actually out there - that's what makes lies possible. Truly, we create our reality.

If a billion people believe in a lie, it will still be a lie, however that lie will be at the heart of the reality they are creating from their thoughts and choices, with their actions. This will give that lie an element of reality, tenuous as it is. Don't forget, history is written by the winners...

Please point to where I state that consciousness creates reality. I don't recall using those words either. I did say the universe is conscious, and transcendent consciousness taps into that consciousness - the unitive consciousness. I agree, choice creates 'reality' - especially our inner reality.

[Ascendant]

The external world is mearly a reflection of the mass-internal cosmos..

Consciousness = Reality. Similar energies attract.
Reality = Reality. Opposite energies attract.

That basically sums up the entire conception of consciousness' inter-relation with reality.

In regards to "Higher-Self" or "Super-Consciousness"

You must ground all higher channeling through the root. So it is sort of like, downloading. A psychic I know calls it downloading. Maybe it is something different.

I cant really tell you until I experiance more.

[Jonathan]

There are plenty of measurements in nature that are far more stable than consciousness, no? The mind is whimsical, and can change drastically a hundred times in a few seconds. The observable world, like the dimensions of a rock, certainly changes over time, but not in a manner consistent with the whimsical changes of the mind. If we haven’t already, it might be helpful to define consciousness.

[Ascendant]

The mind is simply a giant magnet pluged into the cosmos.

The mind is simply there for your experience, to create possibility and freedom.

The body is simply there for your experience, to do and experience things that the mind and soul can create.

The soul is simply there to be, Be whatever the soul desires to be. The Soul can never tell your Mind, nor your body what to do. The soul is the silent wisper, the truth behind the Ego. It will lead you to self-liberation. Listen to your Heart. Your Soul desires you to realize that you are your Soul, that you are God.

[wstein]

A bit late but back to the top of the topic:

As some probably already know, I do not see consciousness as singular foundation of 'reality'. To me they are separate although they can interact. Of course this description depends on the definition of 'reality' as much as on the definition of 'consciousness'. For me, reality is pretty much the same as separation [of divine into parts]. This is not to be confused with existence which is a actualized form rather than purely abstract or conceptual. A consciousness without a reality is in essence all inclusive as there is no 'external' from which it is separate. To have reality is to have more than one, i.e. from a conscious perspective, a me and one or more not-me. Similarly, a bunch of separatenesses may be real but lack consciousness and thus lack any awareness of themselves or the others.

It is clear that the world in which human consciousness (and many other creatures) live in is largely self constructed. I would suggest that a small fraction of sensory input, presumably from the outside, actually gets through. As such, this small portion of each reality is not entirely created by that consciousness. This does not necessarily imply that the physical portion of a person is actually in the world which their consciousness perceives it to be. Its clear in so called crazy people that the two do not match. This suggests that human consciousness at least, constructs a model of reality that has only passing relation to the reality in which the body lives. Some argue that the body and this external reality is entirely constructed by consciousness. Its obviously hard to tell if some 'super' form of consciousness has created everything including the human level consciousness. However, experience suggests that no single human level consciousness has created the entirety of this universe. In some (unknown) fashion, many beings share a small portion of this joint reality.

[wstein]

This issue of linking existence to time seems a bit silly to me. As at least this universe can be viewed in a timeless manner, an object exists if it ever came to be for any amount of time.

For those into physics, the gravitation effect of an object continues infinitely into the future even if in the next quanta time, the object is destroyed. In fact as everything 'changes' (moves to a new quantum state) close to continuously, everything changes all the time. Anything we perceive no longer exists as it was except for a particular observer. Thus for any given moment of time, a previously existing object does exist for an arbitrary number of observers. For those observers, that object can affect them in their present (which is not the same present of the object itself). As the gravitation effect travels infinitely into the future, it continues to 'encounter' more (new) observers. In this way it always exists once it ever exists.

Perhaps the Buddhists are hinting that an object exists for an observer only because the observes declares it to be so. After all, there is no true separation between things. All matter interacts with the rest of the universe. So who is to say where an object starts and ends. Further, the substance from which the object is made, changes continuously and such there is basis to declare it the same object after a single moment in time. As the observers are also equally observable, nothing is permanent. This does mean that things do not exist, only that they are transient in nature.

If you want to get really technical, then all manner of reality and existence is an illusion. From this view there can be no discussion either as it is also of the illusion and does not exist either. While defining 'exist' in this way is possible (perhaps correct), its pointless to have a discussion about it.